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Today's Topics:
1. Module Queries (was Grub2 and Fedora 23) (Peter Hemmings)
2. Re: Module Queries (was Grub2 and Fedora 23) (Shane McEwan)
3. Re: Lost Fedora wifi after adding Mint 17! (grub) (Steve King)
4. Re: Module Queries (was Grub2 and Fedora 23) (Sebastian)
5. Re: Lost Fedora wifi after adding Mint 17! (grub) (Sebastian)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 14:14:51 +0100
From: Peter Hemmings <peternsomerset@virginmedia.com>
To: Bristol and Bath Linux User Group <bristol@mailman.lug.org.uk>
Subject: [bristol] Module Queries (was Grub2 and Fedora 23)
Message-ID: <56FA7FCB.1030201@virginmedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
After my recent experiences, I realize I am not sure how/when modules
are loaded and for the benefit of others like me, some clarification my
be of some help!
Brief background:
Have a Thinkpad T60 with a 3945ABG wireless chip.
After adding another (Mint 17) OS to my dual boot (with XP) grub on Mint
had problems probing Fedora 23 (Fedora uses LVM).
Eventually re-installed Fedora on same partition and Fedora grub2
probed the other OS's OK but without wireless and many other modules.
1. Are some modules modules loaded from the kernel and any others
downloaded as required on installation or are they all in the kernel now?
2. If modules are from both places are they all listed with modprobe?
3. Is it possible that my wireless module has been reduced to
semi-redundant and in the latest kernels now needs iwlegacy to run iwl3945?
4. If the above was the case then is it possible that previous kernels
had the module and just worked, but now I have to download it?
The reason I asked the last question is that I thought I fedora
installations worked without internet connections previously. I also
thought live installs required some form of internet connection cable or
WiFi before allowing it to go ahead.
I do not however thing I had to configure WiFi before installing Fedora
so assume that was my main problem.
Sorry for some of the basic questions but since the days of manually
installing wireless modules (many years ago) I have not encountered any
problems and forgotten how it all works!
Regards
--
Peter H
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:24:36 +0100
From: Shane McEwan <shane@mcewan.id.au>
To: bristol@mailman.lug.org.uk
Subject: Re: [bristol] Module Queries (was Grub2 and Fedora 23)
Message-ID: <56FA9023.2070006@mcewan.id.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 29/03/16 14:14, Peter Hemmings wrote:
> 1. Are some modules modules loaded from the kernel and any others
> downloaded as required on installation or are they all in the kernel
> now?
When you say "modules" you're really talking about "kernel modules".
Back in the olden days the Linux kernel didn't have modules. Drivers
needed to be compiled into the kernel. If you had exotic hardware you
would often need to recompile the whole kernel because the drivers you
needed weren't included in there by default. Fun times. When the kernel
module functionality was added kernel drivers were gradually modularised
and now almost all drivers run as modules.
On my Ubuntu system (I can't remember about Fedora) I can look at the
`/boot/config-$(uname -r)` file and see what options the kernel was
compiled with. Settings marked with "y" are compiled into the kernel,
settings with "m" are built as modules for optional loading at boot time.
Most distros package the modules into separate packages so you can
selectively choose what hardware to support. If the modules you need are
not included in a default install package list then you'll need to
manually install the packages in order to get the modules for the
kernel. That might mean downloading the RPM files on a machine that has
Internet access, putting the files onto a USB stick, and manually
installing the packages in order to get network access working.
> 2. If modules are from both places are they all listed with
> modprobe?
`lsmod` you mean? That will list all the dynamically loaded modules. It
won't list the drivers compiled directly into the kernel.
> 3. Is it possible that my wireless module has been reduced to
> semi-redundant and in the latest kernels now needs iwlegacy to run
> iwl3945?
I think iwlegacy is just the new name for some old Intel modules that
are probably not being developed any more. You might need to add iwl3945
to the /etc/modules file to make sure it loads on boot but I would have
thought it would be automatic.
> 4. If the above was the case then is it possible that previous
> kernels had the module and just worked, but now I have to download
> it?
It's possible. Newer distros might change what modules are installed and
enabled by default. Particularly if they're old and unstable or the
kernel module ABI has changed and they're no longer compatible or taint
the kernel in some way. The fact that your wireless driver seems to have
moved into something called "iwlegacy" seems to indicate that it's
pretty old!
> The reason I asked the last question is that I thought I fedora
> installations worked without internet connections previously. I also
> thought live installs required some form of internet connection
> cable or WiFi before allowing it to go ahead. I do not however thing
> I had to configure WiFi before installing Fedora so assume that was
> my main problem.
Quite often the live install images have a lot of hardware drivers
enabled by default to ensure they'll work on as much hardware as
possible. I don't know whether the installer is smart enough to then
also install those required drivers when installing the system.
Depending on the live CD it might have enough packages on it to install
the system without a network connection. Some, however, only have the
minimum number of packages to get a system up and running and if you
have weird hardware you might find that stuff doesn't work after
installation.
Shane.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:36:06 +0100
From: "Steve King" <debian@invux.com>
To: "Bristol and Bath Linux User Group" <bristol@mailman.lug.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [bristol] Lost Fedora wifi after adding Mint 17! (grub)
Message-ID:
<82c59f274893571958ef25322aa2a9a7.squirrel@dazzle.invux.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> On 24/03/16 13:16, Peter Hemmings wrote:
>> Unfortunately the ppa function is not supported in my Mint 17 so cannot
>> activate repository/download boot-repair
>
> sudo apt-get install python-software-properties
>
>> I did an update-grub again and its still the same (last option in
>> "Advanced Menu" gives latest fc23).
>>
>> Could this be anything to do with fc23 being on lvm!?
>
> I think it's just that Mint has no idea what order it should put the
> detected non-Mint kernels in the Grub menu.
>
> I suspect you're going to need a custom Grub config because you've got a
> custom setup. You can't expect the defaults to work all the time if
> you're not running a default system. With a bit of trial and error you
> can update the "GRUB_DEFAULT" variable in "/etc/default/grub" in Mint to
> point to the kernel you want to boot by default. This page should help
> you device what to set "GRUB_DEFAULT" to:
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/Submenus#Setting_a_Submenu_entry_as_the_default
>
> Note that next time you update Fedora it will likely overwrite your grub
> with its own configuration and you'll be back to square one. The joys of
> dual-booting!
>
> Shane.
>
I would second this assessment, you are probably booting into Fedora Core
using mint's kernel, in which case you would not get the suite of modules
you need as the ones in /lib/modules would be incompatible with your
running kernel.
In my experience it is always messy dual booting each installed operating
system expects to manage all the others.
--
Steve
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:41:32 +0100
From: Sebastian <sebsebseb_mageia@gmx.com>
To: Bristol and Bath Linux User Group <bristol@mailman.lug.org.uk>,
sebastian <sebsebseb_mageia@gmx.com>
Subject: Re: [bristol] Module Queries (was Grub2 and Fedora 23)
Message-ID: <56FAA22C.9060305@gmx.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Yes so in response to the below email from Shane and for Peter,
generally most hardware should just work as long as it's standard enough
in a distro by default, with the exception of propritary wireless and
graphics cards drivers for example since the Linux kernel can't just
support that by default etc since that would go against the lisence. I
think in Ubuntu for example after an install and it mentions how can
remove support for hardware that don't have, that's probably the kernel
module type stuff really. No one really generally needs to compile
their own kernel or modules into it these days etc it seems, unless they
are doing something rather specific and out of the ordinary that
requires that generally.
On 29/03/16 15:24, Shane McEwan wrote:
> On 29/03/16 14:14, Peter Hemmings wrote:
>> 1. Are some modules modules loaded from the kernel and any others
>> downloaded as required on installation or are they all in the kernel
>> now?
>
> When you say "modules" you're really talking about "kernel modules".
> Back in the olden days the Linux kernel didn't have modules. Drivers
> needed to be compiled into the kernel. If you had exotic hardware you
> would often need to recompile the whole kernel because the drivers you
> needed weren't included in there by default. Fun times. When the
> kernel module functionality was added kernel drivers were gradually
> modularised and now almost all drivers run as modules.
>
> On my Ubuntu system (I can't remember about Fedora) I can look at the
> `/boot/config-$(uname -r)` file and see what options the kernel was
> compiled with. Settings marked with "y" are compiled into the kernel,
> settings with "m" are built as modules for optional loading at boot time.
>
> Most distros package the modules into separate packages so you can
> selectively choose what hardware to support. If the modules you need
> are not included in a default install package list then you'll need to
> manually install the packages in order to get the modules for the
> kernel. That might mean downloading the RPM files on a machine that
> has Internet access, putting the files onto a USB stick, and manually
> installing the packages in order to get network access working.
>
>> 2. If modules are from both places are they all listed with
>> modprobe?
>
> `lsmod` you mean? That will list all the dynamically loaded modules.
> It won't list the drivers compiled directly into the kernel.
>
>> 3. Is it possible that my wireless module has been reduced to
>> semi-redundant and in the latest kernels now needs iwlegacy to run
>> iwl3945?
>
> I think iwlegacy is just the new name for some old Intel modules that
> are probably not being developed any more. You might need to add
> iwl3945 to the /etc/modules file to make sure it loads on boot but I
> would have thought it would be automatic.
>
>> 4. If the above was the case then is it possible that previous
>> kernels had the module and just worked, but now I have to download
>> it?
>
> It's possible. Newer distros might change what modules are installed
> and enabled by default. Particularly if they're old and unstable or
> the kernel module ABI has changed and they're no longer compatible or
> taint the kernel in some way. The fact that your wireless driver seems
> to have moved into something called "iwlegacy" seems to indicate that
> it's pretty old!
>
>> The reason I asked the last question is that I thought I fedora
>> installations worked without internet connections previously. I also
>> thought live installs required some form of internet connection
>> cable or WiFi before allowing it to go ahead. I do not however thing
>> I had to configure WiFi before installing Fedora so assume that was
>> my main problem.
>
> Quite often the live install images have a lot of hardware drivers
> enabled by default to ensure they'll work on as much hardware as
> possible. I don't know whether the installer is smart enough to then
> also install those required drivers when installing the system.
> Depending on the live CD it might have enough packages on it to
> install the system without a network connection. Some, however, only
> have the minimum number of packages to get a system up and running and
> if you have weird hardware you might find that stuff doesn't work
> after installation.
>
> Shane.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bristol mailing list
> Bristol@mailman.lug.org.uk
> https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bristol
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:45:25 +0100
From: Sebastian <sebsebseb_mageia@gmx.com>
To: debian@invux.com, Bristol and Bath Linux User Group
<bristol@mailman.lug.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [bristol] Lost Fedora wifi after adding Mint 17! (grub)
Message-ID: <56FAA315.9070701@gmx.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Yep make sure that you are using the correct kernel for the distro that
installed it, and things should go more ok :).
On 29/03/16 16:36, Steve King wrote:
>> On 24/03/16 13:16, Peter Hemmings wrote:
>>> Unfortunately the ppa function is not supported in my Mint 17 so cannot
>>> activate repository/download boot-repair
>> sudo apt-get install python-software-properties
>>
>>> I did an update-grub again and its still the same (last option in
>>> "Advanced Menu" gives latest fc23).
>>>
>>> Could this be anything to do with fc23 being on lvm!?
>> I think it's just that Mint has no idea what order it should put the
>> detected non-Mint kernels in the Grub menu.
>>
>> I suspect you're going to need a custom Grub config because you've got a
>> custom setup. You can't expect the defaults to work all the time if
>> you're not running a default system. With a bit of trial and error you
>> can update the "GRUB_DEFAULT" variable in "/etc/default/grub" in Mint to
>> point to the kernel you want to boot by default. This page should help
>> you device what to set "GRUB_DEFAULT" to:
>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/Submenus#Setting_a_Submenu_entry_as_the_default
>>
>> Note that next time you update Fedora it will likely overwrite your grub
>> with its own configuration and you'll be back to square one. The joys of
>> dual-booting!
>>
>> Shane.
>>
> I would second this assessment, you are probably booting into Fedora Core
> using mint's kernel, in which case you would not get the suite of modules
> you need as the ones in /lib/modules would be incompatible with your
> running kernel.
>
> In my experience it is always messy dual booting each installed operating
> system expects to manage all the others.
>
> --
> Steve
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bristol mailing list
> Bristol@mailman.lug.org.uk
> https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bristol
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